> Support > Database Errors 8.4.x

cc:Mail Database Errors


Subject: Re[5]: How common are DB errors?

Author: Ron Herardian at GSS
Date: 09-30-96 22:53

Here's my $.02

Imperfect environments are the norm not the exception. No one needs a product that only works in theory. The cc:Mail architecture has enough dependencies on workstation, networking, and server technologies that Lotus does not control. Problems within the cc:Mail system make it high maintenance and difficult to manage in very large systems: for example, the inability to control Mobile configurations from a central location, e.g., moving a user from one PO to another breaks Mobile, or the inability to monitor cc:Mail Routers and gateways in realtime throughout the system, or the simple lack of built-in automated monitoring, fault tolerance, and error recovery facilities (cc:Mail View does not compensate, unless you're trying to justify additional Router boxes or server disk space). I think Lotus needs to do a lot more listening to customers and coding what customers want. That's how the cc:Mail company became successful.

Saying that the customer's network environment is the problem, when other systems work acceptably (if not perfectly) only points to the limitations of the cc:Mail architecture itself. To be fair, of course e-mail is a mission critical application with a high profile, and there is no perfect e-mail system. Often times, the problems impacting cc:Mail actually do impact other systems: they just aren't as important! In fact, the disruptive effect of network problems on the cc:Mail system can be alleviated by troubleshooting and correcting the network issues.

The most problematic environments are typically riddled with cc:Mail system design flaws that there is absolutely no reason for. Often the customer points a finger at Lotus when the system they have themselves designed implemented is fundamentally unreliable--this is a systems engineering problem, but I think LOTUS is at fault for not taking a systems approach in designing, testing, and documenting their own system.

What I disagree with more than anything, though, is customers pouring resources into maintaining the cc:Mail system, or persistently blaming the vendor, when the REAL causes of ongoing problems just aren't in the cc:Mail system. This then is the customer's reality. The real causes of the problems at hand must be addressed, whether or not the customer thinks things 'should' be as they are. You have to do what works and that means keeping a clean network, running a tight ship all the way around, and designing your cc:Mail system correctly from the start.

Ron

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Subject: Re[4]: How common are DB errors?
Author: "cc:Mail Interest Group" <CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU> at
INTERNET_ROUTER
Date: 09-30-96 17:52

I've already been moderately flamed in private on the stridency of my earlier email - I dont really want to just raise hell at Lotusphere - I want to see if I can make all of the rest of you agree that Lotus should invest some resources in fixing some flaws. And I'll readily admit that my environment is imperfect. We have lousy desktop control. But we have a good network. But its not flawless. And sometimes its very busy. And Lotus says a busy network, or any network errors, can corrupt a database.

Anyway, I would hope to see others at Lotusphere, and talk about how great ccmail is, and how Lotus can make it better still.

Subject: Re[3]: How common are DB errors?
Author: CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU_at_~internet at pcworldtalk
Date: 9/27/96 11:32 AM

I think we are forgetting one thing, it's E-mail. I'm sure if Lotus designed a bread and butter system, that they would make it solid enough to run the business with out fear, or least have the redundancy your looking for. Notes anyone?

Take a look at other e-mail systems out there. cc:Mail was and still is far superior then any other system. If your looking for qualities of a relational database, your looking at more than just e-mail.

Lets not forget that your enviornment is a big player. 95% percent of the problems I see here have never happen to me, including database corruption(knock on wood). Am I perfect? No. The environment may be the most optimal is all. We all have processes and setups in house that
aren't the greatest, so before we cast stones lets make sure we have no faults.



As for Win95. Microsoft made the bold claim that it 95 would work with all windows apps, so, why doesn't it work with with cc:Mail? Should we begin bashing MS? No, it happens. Let's face it, perfection just doesn't play a role in the software game. If you don't who that those 5000 users that are setup are setup correctly, can me simply blame MS and Lotus alone?

I'm not saying your concerns are not genuine. In fact I do share in some of the concerns. I'm just not convinced that yelling and raising hell will resolve anything, and compare apples to apples and not oranges.

Massimo Pandolfi

This my opionion, and not those of my company or employer.

Subject: Re[2]: How common are DB errors?
Author: "DAN KRONSTADT@warnerbros.com" <DAN_KRONSTADT@WARNERBROS.COM> at
internet-mail
Date: 9/25/96 8:41 AM

And we all consider this acceptable?! Would you accept this in any other DBMS? Would you run your financial systems on a database that had to be repaired this frequently, or that lost records?

Whatever happened to transaction integrity, database locking, restart/recovery, journaling, etc?

I believe that cc:Mail has an unsound architecture, or a failed implementation of that architecture. I've been raising hell with my local support people, and my IBM sales rep --- not that I expect anything to get fixed.

I also believe that Lotus's support is inadequate. Take a look at how many messages on this mailing list have been about ccmail and win95 and db corruption. How could Lotus not have gotten out a quick, accurate, and consistent answer to how to make this work? And I feel they should have added code to ccmail to check win95/novell for proper settings - how am I to ensure that 5000 desktops have the proper settings? And how many of you know that an early version of CCSAVE - the very utility that Lotus support keeps saying is the ONLY safe way to copy database - that an early version would actually CORRUPT database and not tell you? Did Lotus put out an alert here, or anywhere? The Lotus knowledge base describes this as "potentially serious." Makes me want to laugh/cry ...

I intend to go to Lotus Sphere and try to raise some hell there. Anyone interested?

Dan Kronstadt

Note: These opionions are my own, and not necessarily those of my employer.

 

Subject: Re: How common are DB errors?
Author: CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU_at_~internet at pcworldtalk
Date: 9/25/96 07:59 AM

DB errors are quite common and your example sound normal. As long a these are not major errors or NFTERRORS I would not worry. Serious corruption that downs your PO on a daily basis - this is when you start worrying!

I believe that when cc:Mail loses message pointers, those messages are gone forever, from the time of the misplaced pointer, no matter what maintenance is
run afterwards. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the only recovery I know of is from backup (or possibly cc:Mail Support can surgically recover some messages...). Yes those messages are in limbo, never to be read again, and will be deleted during proper maintenance, or possibly written over by new messages...

Subject: How common are DB errors?
Author: "cc:Mail Interest Group" <CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU> at SMTP
Date: 9/24/96 10:38 PM

How common are database errors under DB6? We have a relatively small DB (~25MB, but growing quickly), that seems to always have one or two error during our weekly reclaim cycle. Is this normal?

I realize that errors will happen, but I have to frame of reference to distinguish how many is too many, and when to start looking for something wrong.

Another question:

What happens to messages that have errors? When CHKSTAT reconciles messages pointer, for example, does that mean that the message was inaccessible before the fix? Are unread messages that have some type of error just sitting in limbo until a maintenance cycle is run?

Thanks in advance.


Kevin Miller kevinm@uhs.berkeley.edu
Information Systems 3120 Tang Center
University Health Services Phone: (510) 643-5948
University of California, Berkeley Fax: (510) 643-5079
http://ugastro.berkeley.edu/~kevinm/


 
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