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cc:Mail
Database Errors |
Subject: Re[5]: How common are DB errors?
Author: Ron Herardian at GSS
Date: 09-30-96 22:53
Here's my $.02
Imperfect environments are the norm not the exception. No one needs
a product that only works in theory. The cc:Mail architecture has
enough dependencies on workstation, networking, and server technologies
that Lotus does not control. Problems within the cc:Mail system make
it high maintenance and difficult to manage in very large systems:
for example, the inability to control Mobile configurations from a
central location, e.g., moving a user from one PO to another breaks
Mobile, or the inability to monitor cc:Mail Routers and gateways in
realtime throughout the system, or the simple lack of built-in automated
monitoring, fault tolerance, and error recovery facilities (cc:Mail
View does not compensate, unless you're trying to justify additional
Router boxes or server disk space). I think Lotus needs to do a lot
more listening to customers and coding what customers want. That's
how the cc:Mail company became successful.
Saying that the customer's network environment is the problem, when
other systems work acceptably (if not perfectly) only points to the
limitations of the cc:Mail architecture itself. To be fair, of course
e-mail is a mission critical application with a high profile, and
there is no perfect e-mail system. Often times, the problems impacting
cc:Mail actually do impact other systems: they just aren't as important!
In fact, the disruptive effect of network problems on the cc:Mail
system can be alleviated by troubleshooting and correcting the network
issues.
The most problematic environments are typically riddled with cc:Mail
system design flaws that there is absolutely no reason for. Often
the customer points a finger at Lotus when the system they have themselves
designed implemented is fundamentally unreliable--this is a systems
engineering problem, but I think LOTUS is at fault for not taking
a systems approach in designing, testing, and documenting their own
system.
What I disagree with more than anything, though, is customers pouring
resources into maintaining the cc:Mail system, or persistently blaming
the vendor, when the REAL causes of ongoing problems just aren't in
the cc:Mail system. This then is the customer's reality. The real
causes of the problems at hand must be addressed, whether or not the
customer thinks things 'should' be as they are. You have to do what
works and that means keeping a clean network, running a tight ship
all the way around, and designing your cc:Mail system correctly from
the start.
Ron
--
Subject: Re[4]: How common are DB errors?
Author: "cc:Mail Interest Group"
<CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU> at
INTERNET_ROUTER
Date: 09-30-96 17:52
I've already been moderately flamed in private
on the stridency of my earlier email - I dont really want to just
raise hell at Lotusphere - I want to see if I can make all of the
rest of you agree that Lotus should invest some resources in fixing
some flaws. And I'll readily admit that my environment is imperfect.
We have lousy desktop control. But we have a good network. But its
not flawless. And sometimes its very busy. And Lotus says a busy network,
or any network errors, can corrupt a database.
Anyway, I would hope to see others at Lotusphere, and talk about how
great ccmail is, and how Lotus can make it better still.
Subject: Re[3]: How common are
DB errors?
Author: CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU_at_~internet
at pcworldtalk
Date: 9/27/96 11:32 AM
I think we are forgetting one
thing, it's E-mail. I'm sure if Lotus designed a bread and butter
system, that they would make it solid enough to run the business with
out fear, or least have the redundancy your looking for. Notes anyone?
Take a look at other e-mail systems out there. cc:Mail was and still
is far superior then any other system. If your looking for qualities
of a relational database, your looking at more than just e-mail.
Lets not forget that your enviornment is a big player. 95% percent
of the problems I see here have never happen to me, including database
corruption(knock on wood). Am I perfect? No. The environment may be
the most optimal is all. We all have processes and setups in house
that
aren't the greatest, so before we cast stones lets make sure we have
no faults.
As for Win95. Microsoft made the bold claim that it 95 would work
with all windows apps, so, why doesn't it work with with cc:Mail?
Should we begin bashing MS? No, it happens. Let's face it, perfection
just doesn't play a role in the software game. If you don't who that
those 5000 users that are setup are setup correctly, can me simply
blame MS and Lotus alone?
I'm not saying your concerns are not genuine. In fact I do share in
some of the concerns. I'm just not convinced that yelling and raising
hell will resolve anything, and compare apples to apples and not oranges.
Massimo Pandolfi
This my opionion, and not those of my company or employer.
Subject: Re[2]: How common are
DB errors?
Author: "DAN KRONSTADT@warnerbros.com"
<DAN_KRONSTADT@WARNERBROS.COM> at
internet-mail
Date: 9/25/96 8:41 AM
And we
all consider this acceptable?! Would you accept this in any other
DBMS? Would you run your financial systems on a database that had
to be repaired this frequently, or that lost records?
Whatever happened to transaction integrity, database locking, restart/recovery,
journaling, etc?
I believe that cc:Mail has an unsound architecture, or a failed implementation
of that architecture. I've been raising hell with my local support
people, and my IBM sales rep --- not that I expect anything to get
fixed.
I also believe that Lotus's support is inadequate. Take a look at
how many messages on this mailing list have been about ccmail and
win95 and db corruption. How could Lotus not have gotten out a quick,
accurate, and consistent answer to how to make this work? And I feel
they should have added code to ccmail to check win95/novell for proper
settings - how am I to ensure that 5000 desktops have the proper settings?
And how many of you know that an early version of CCSAVE - the very
utility that Lotus support keeps saying is the ONLY safe way to copy
database - that an early version would actually CORRUPT database and
not tell you? Did Lotus put out an alert here, or anywhere? The Lotus
knowledge base describes this as "potentially serious."
Makes me want to laugh/cry ...
I intend to go to Lotus Sphere and try to raise some hell there. Anyone
interested?
Dan Kronstadt
Note: These opionions are my own, and not necessarily those of my
employer.
Subject: Re: How common are DB errors?
Author: CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU_at_~internet
at pcworldtalk
Date: 9/25/96 07:59 AM
DB errors are quite common
and your example sound normal. As long a these are not major errors
or NFTERRORS I would not worry. Serious corruption that downs your
PO on a daily basis - this is when you start worrying!
I believe that when cc:Mail loses message pointers, those messages
are gone forever, from the time of the misplaced pointer, no matter
what maintenance is
run afterwards. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but the only recovery
I know of is from backup (or possibly cc:Mail Support can surgically
recover some messages...). Yes those messages are in limbo, never
to be read again, and will be deleted during proper maintenance, or
possibly written over by new messages...
Subject: How common are DB errors?
Author: "cc:Mail Interest Group"
<CCMAIL-L@LISTSERV.OKSTATE.EDU> at SMTP
Date: 9/24/96 10:38 PM
How common
are database errors under DB6? We have a relatively small DB (~25MB,
but growing quickly), that seems to always have one or two error during
our weekly reclaim cycle. Is this normal?
I realize that errors will happen, but I have to frame of reference
to distinguish how many is too many, and when to start looking for
something wrong.
Another question:
What happens to messages that have errors? When CHKSTAT reconciles
messages pointer, for example, does that mean that the message was
inaccessible before the fix? Are unread messages that have some type
of error just sitting in limbo until a maintenance cycle is run?
Thanks in advance.
Kevin Miller kevinm@uhs.berkeley.edu
Information Systems 3120 Tang Center
University Health Services Phone: (510) 643-5948
University of California, Berkeley Fax: (510) 643-5079
http://ugastro.berkeley.edu/~kevinm/


©1995-2005 by Global System Services Corporation (GSS). Portions
of this material are copyright ©1995-1999 by Ron Herardian
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